it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. . reference books that display proof marks and their meanings. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. Marlin-Savage-Winchester I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. Henri Pieper (left) and Nicolas Pieper (right) Henri Pieper was born and raised in modest German home in Soest (Westphalia) Germany on Oct 30, 1840. Jacquemart-Pirotte Joseph Jamar & Cie Jamar Frres Jamar Jean Henri Jamar J. H. & Soleil & Smits Jamar-Smits Jean Henri Jamar Michel Jamin Marcel Jamri J. H. Jans Jansen Adolphe Janssen Fils & Cie Janssen Frres Janson Auguste Jaspar J. JBL Job T. Joiris Joiris & Geurten Joiris Jean, Vandenbergh G & Geurten J. Joiris Joseph Jolet Joseph Dallas, Donald. The second and third indicateit was proofed at Lige. Bernimolin & Cap I have got a 19th century belgian double barrel pin fire shoutgun with walnut stock(116cm). Please note! 1860-1870. Belgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 preBelgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 pre 1898 fine old Belgium imported exposed hammer shotgun, Leige proofed, floral engraved receiver showing some; FINE 19C. firearms. R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. Charlier Ch. Broqua & Scholberg Comblain are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. Any info will help. Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. The 'z' most likely is an inspector's mark indicating satisfactory quality for this part: in this case, a revolver cylinder--that's my best guess, anyway. As I've said, I'm not an expert. Very long barrel. Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Bernard Emile & Cie time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. Lewis Lobdell Hepburn ran his own gunshop in Colton, a small village .Click for more info Seller: gbdeer Area Code: 315 $2,600.00 ATTRACTIVE WESLEY RICHARDS 6-GAUGE PERCUSSION SINGLE BARREL SHOTGUN GI#: 102214961 Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! firearms books bibliary. Brancquaert Louis Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his Closset J.M. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. Clment Charles Philibert This will be an on going Clment Walter In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. Do you have any information on them? with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. HI, John. Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. Proof Marks or for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. He received his technical training in Soest and then in Warstein. Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. So the only indicator of the chamber depth is found with the stamp of the Chamber dimensions? Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? Clment-Neumann Ad Categories: Pre-1840. To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. Any idea how to date it? Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. How do I price this piece? What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. Bayet Frres Thanks! Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. Very helpfull once again. Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. Baker, David J. country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they Thank you Jerry. Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. M855 Green Tip, Didn't find what you were looking for? Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. significance or purpose. Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: Some were sold in Stoeger catalogs in the early 60s. Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. Behr Jean jacques Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. A great deal of painstaking research work is necessary before a list of armourers marks applied to pistols can be compiled, but I have every hope of preparing such a list at a future date when peace is restored in Europe and the great museum collections are accessible. Arnold Mathias All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Home > Companies Gun & arms makers from Belgium country Czech Republic South Africa Israel Malaysia Netherlands Belgium Norway United Arab Emirates Finland Nigeria Ukraine Hungary Indonesia Lithuania Serbia Slovak Republic Croatia New Zealand Sweden Greece Japan Slovenia Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. Muzzleloading, breech loading, accessories, Airborne weapon pod systems, ammunition, vehicle mounted weapon systems, Gas-piston-operated weapon systems, firearm accessories, drop-in triggers, patriotic artwork, bolt carriers, bolts, upper receivers, barrel nut heatsinks, E^2 (E-Squared) barrels, Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles, Suppressors, optics, ammunition, clothing, Springfield, Massachusetts armory location, (Special Warfare Operations Research and Development), This page was last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10. Bovy Thodore Joseph Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? Cachoir Ordinance and Proof Houses were established by law in almost every Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. Collette Lopold Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. Bouquin Ad Again, thank you I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. IMPORTANT NOTE! These In fact, that pattern was considered as adding to the beauty of a gun and therefore highly desireable. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. The lack of chamber length probably means it was made before 1892.Is there a name on it? American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. Bernard Ernest Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. carefully bound by threads. Inspectors mark, normally these are kept secret. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". This printed stream Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. Bischop Pierre Quite old. Bernard Victor & Cie I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. Then emigrated to Belgium at the end of 1859. . The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. Thank y'all again! Your help is appreciated. Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Baltus - Wilmotte Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. Can you send me some, Ed? Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. Thank you for Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. You can also browse other antique pistols for sale or additional categories as diverse as Colts, Winchesters, and antique long guns. interlaced, and surmounted by a crown. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. this location now so you can return often. The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. Cap Joseph Thanks Brandon. Wish I could be more helpful! If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. The only other markings I have seen are along the length of thr barrel \ \/ | . i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", Colleye Henri Joseph New York: A. S. Barnes, 1961. No maker's name anywhere? It is located just above the circle with ELG. Anyone else know? presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . As for proof marks, the oval with E/LG/* inside makes it indeed Belgian. Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. Colot Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Information, NRA On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip.